An Insider’s Look at how COVID-19 is Impacting the Global Clean Energy Supply Chain
The Freeing Energy Podcast #034: Andy Klump: An insider’s look at how COVID-19 is impacting global clean energy supply chains
In this exclusive interview, global supply chain expert Andy Klump shares his unique insights on how the COVID-19 outbreak is affecting Chinese manufacturing, the impact it’s having on renewable energy projects around the world, and the steps needed to get the global system back on an even keel.
Topics Discussed Include:
Why China is the leading manufacturer of the world's solar products
How other products in the solar space like racking mounting structures, battery storage, inverters, and other subcomponents are gaining significant momentum in demand
The manner in which CEA has embraced remote working and collaboration, especially with the kinds of projects that requires a lot of travel and in-person inspection
Methods in which supply chain strategy is maneuvering towards localization
Podcast Transcript
Sam Esterby:
How is COVID-19 impacting the renewable energy industry? In this exclusive interview, global supply chain expert, Andy Klump shares his unique insights on how the COVID-19 outbreak is affecting Chinese manufacturing. The impacts it's having on renewable energy projects around the world. And importantly, the steps needed to get the global system back on an even keel. Klump’s international from Clean Energy Associates is headquartered in Shanghai, China, and advises manufacturers, suppliers, and users of renewable energy around the world. This is the Freeing Energy Podcast, and these are the personal stories from local energy champions and leaders in the world of renewable energy that are shaping our future.
Bill Nussey:
Well a warm welcome to all of our friends and supporters and the freeing energy project world, we have a really timely and incredibly important set of topics for today is everybody in the entire world knows the COVID virus or the corona. The novel coronavirus is really changing the shape of how we think about our lives and the global supply chain. Uh, and really the impacts of this are just starting to manifest themselves as we learn what it means to deal with a global pandemic in the 21st century. I am incredibly excited that we have a guest today whose perspective is among the most unique, I think we're going to ever have the opportunity on a topic like this, and we've heard from him before. He's a friend of the freeing energy project. Uh, so I'm really excited to welcome back. Uh, Andy Klump. Welcome Andy. Excellent. Thank you very much, Bill and happy to be here.
Clean Energy Associates Company Overview
Bill Nussey:
So for those of you that aren't familiar with Andy and his company, Clean Energy Associates, it's a really unique business. And, uh, one, that's going to give us a great perspective day. So Andy, tell us just briefly, what is it that you guys do?
Andy Klump:
So Clean Energy Associates is a global technical advisory company that provides comprehensive engineering solutions for the solar and storage industry. We work for our customers and help them with a procurement of key upstream equipment. We support the quality oversight as those products are being produced in the factories. And then we also provide independent engineering at the site level at both the solar and energy storage industries. So essentially if someone's building a solar project or now these days, solar and storage, and they're buying large amounts of materials and components, uh, your company is critical for them, making sure they get the right stuff, they build it the right way that it comes as they've purchased it.
Bill Nussey:
And I think one of the parts that makes your company so unique is that because 70% of the world's solar products are made in China, you guys are based there, your base there, your company's headquartered there. And so tell us a little bit about what your footprint in China looks like. Where are you guys there? Um, what are your folks doing? How many folks are doing it, that kind of thing.
Andy Klump:
I've been living and working in China for the last 17 years. Uh, since 2003, I actually arrived in China just as the SARS epidemic was, uh, was calming down. So I know, uh, about that scenario and can talk through that on my time in Beijing. But I joined the solar industry in 2006 first with Trina solar for two years. And I worked in-house inside a factory, but in 2008, I establish CEA as a platform to allow international companies to work with the different, uh, Asian based manufacturers. So in total, we have built organically over the last 12 years, a team of 125 professionals in 11 countries. But our team in China, uh, consists of roughly 80 professionals, most of which are inspectors and engineers that are in different factories. And those include different components, not just modules, also some of the upstream components to modules and the crystal and supply chain, but also a racking mounting structures, battery storage, inverters, uh, other components as well. So from our base in China, our team covers many different facilities in Southeast Asia and just Asia, uh, internationally, broadly defined, but we do have teams in other, uh, other countries as well, including a 25 person team in the U S
COVID-19 Impact Overview in China
Bill Nussey:
I've had the honor of knowing you Andy for, I don't know, 20, 25 years now. And it's been amazing watching you build that business out there, uh, from nothing into the world leader in this area. And hearing your stories is your friend and colleague over those years about what it's like to do business in China, uh, as an American. And, you know, you bring a certain style of business, uh, you, uh, to a country where at least years ago was, was very different. And you bring a perspective that I think that our listeners are gonna love hearing as we explore the intersection of one of the most impactful events in the last couple of decades in modern society. So let's, let's just jump right in the novel coronavirus, uh, known as COVID 19 now, uh, started in China and Wuhan China. And according to some quick statistics here today is, uh, March 13th.
There were 138,000 cases of coronavirus in China, uh, since it started last year, uh, 5,000 deaths. But what's really interesting is, uh, that 70,000 people are, uh, listed by the Chinese government as recovered. And so I think this puts China in a unique position because hopefully the country is as moving through the entire life cycle of this thing and is coming out the other end and can teach the rest of the world some lessons. But tell me, does this go back in time and talk a little bit about what's going on in Shanghai? You have offices there, you've got employees there I've been to your offices are really cool. And so this virus starts, uh, you hear that you're reading the news locally, tell us what happened.
COVID-19 Impact on Clean Energy Associates Operations
Andy Klump:
There were clearly signs in, uh, in January that things were, uh, were getting a bit worse, but you have to understand and put the context that, uh, Chinese new year happened in, uh, mid to late January. And I think it was at that point in time, that things started to spread is Chinese. New year is the crucial holiday for, uh, for all Chinese, uh, you know, globally that week. And that third weekend in January, all of a sudden, you, you saw many different, uh, hundreds of millions of Chinese traveling between their places of work back to their hometowns. And all of a sudden with this rapid, uh, rapid movement of folks there, all of a sudden was a, was a spread of, uh, of the virus, the office that we have in Shanghai, and also, uh, one in Changzhou were closed, you know, during the holidays, uh, just for normal businesses, most people left, but, uh, as the situation was getting worse and the government both in Shanghai, as well as Jiangsu where, uh, our Changzhou office is located, had effectively said, uh, you have to be shut down. And so we did not have an open office for the first, uh, two weeks following the holiday. And so it wasn't until February, roughly February the 10th, that our office was allowed to open. Uh, we had to go through a process. Uh, we had to file an application and fulfill several different requirements or to qualify. Uh, we were rejected the first time. Uh, but the second time we did succeed,
Bill Nussey:
Wow, that's a really powerful story because it portends what I think a lot of other governments will be thinking and putting in place as they get to where China is on the back half of this recovery. So I'm glad you guys were able to reopen where you running a full operations at that point, or was that part-time folks, or how did that work? So
Andy Klump:
I wouldn't say we were allowed to open, but we did not have everyone come to the office just because for, for some, uh, some individuals, it is a longer trip. It's an hour journey one, one way. And so, uh, some were afraid of going through public transportation to the office. And so we had it open for those who were, uh, able to go to the office easily, but it wasn't adopted by everyone. So it was disruptive for some, I would say our company has adapted very easily because we have had many remote workers and we have a very powerful communication tool with zoom and Microsoft teams. Our team had already been working remotely during this time. So it wasn't that much of a problem for the Shanghai office workers and those in Changzhou, I think the bigger issue was more of our project operations team, or we have many engineers that were scattered in different provinces for the Chinese new year holiday.
So the impact for some of those is still being felt. And so we actually have three team members that are actually currently in Hubei province. The Hubei is the location of Wuhan uh, for those who do not know, uh, fortunately they were not in the city center, Wu Han, uh, but they're actually located on the outskirts. A couple of actually were in the countryside by about, uh, an hour away. All three of those individuals are still with their families. They're quarantined and they're given food deliveries once a day and they have food and water and other resources to survive. So they're, they're doing just fine. They're just not allowed to leave. One of my team members even said to Andy, I've been traveling almost, uh, you know, constantly the last six to nine months. I haven't seen my family. So this is a good chance to catch up with them. So I think that's a good example of making, uh, making lemonade out of lemons.
Bill Nussey:
I was explaining to my, uh, kids who are in their late teens, early twenties, that this certainly has no precedent in my lifetime. And, uh, it's a, it's a completely unknown, uh, journey in front of us. Uh, but one that, um, hopefully with good leadership and people acting to their best selves, we can get through it pretty quickly and get back to normal. But let's explore one more question or area about how this affects your business. Before we expand the lens and look at how this affects your customers and industry. So you guys are operating all over the world. It's an amazing business, amazing footprint. I love hearing the stories of the kinds of projects you guys work on, but this requires a lot of travel and in the reason month or so, travel has become greatly restricted. How does that affect your, the work that you're doing and how your people are able to do their jobs for those that do would typically travel
Operation Adjustments due to COVID-19
Andy Klump:
The team around to various locations is an issue prior for our team to actually get into the facilities. We had to sign a reliance letter effectively releasing the factory of a certain obligations because they were concerned that we may be bringing in folks from different regions. And so we had to make a declarative statement that, uh, the team members we were sending in had not been in some of the hotspot regions where there actually were an outbreak of cases Hubei is obviously the largest case where Wuhan is located. One supplier went so far as to say they had a, uh, recommendation that, uh, if there was any violation of the law of prevention of treatment of infectious disease, it could be punished with the maximum penalty up to seven years of imprisonment. I, uh, I first saw that and I said, this is a, this is pretty extreme.
Andy Klump:
And this is obviously not a document that I want to sign. It just shows you the extent that some of the factories were trying to protect their interests and ensure that no one else from the outside who had been infected with COVID-19 would enter. And really we had been working on this and advanced since, uh, since the outbreak in mid, mid January, we'd actually tracked all of our team members in their respective regions. You know, we check their health status. We knew that there were two or three folks who had just a minor cold, uh, made sure they had know clearance from a doctor that they were, uh, they were safe and not, uh, not having COVID-19. So I'm happy to report that all of our team members are healthy and safe, but it just is an example of how extreme some of these factories have been to request. This type of checks is an extreme and unusual circumstance. So we've, we've had to react and, uh, and adapt as well.
Bill Nussey:
Great insights. Uh, it's, it's almost hard to imagine, um, what it's like to get this giant factory of the world started again, and your stories bring vividly to life. Some of the things they have to worry about, I have to ask, are your colleagues in China when there's concern, whether they have COVID virus or not, are they able to get tested? Is this something that's available for most folks? Or how do they determine whether someone actually might have the virus or not? So the government was proactive and sent out a number of different communications and they've been happening, I think, on a, on a very regular basis, but both our foreign team that's in, uh, in China, as well as our local team were given a list of hospitals where they go, go through and seek medical treatment. If they had any of the symptoms, there have been a lot of bilingual communications, uh, across many different channels, uh, to ensure that everyone is, uh, is aware of the options available. We had procured a number of masks. I actually had, uh, uh, had shipped some to the, the team. Uh, we're actually shipping more. We've had to source them, uh, because of the scarcity outside of China. So there's certainly our channels and mechanisms, but we've received donations from even customers from Japan, even a location in Europe. So there've been a lot of folks who've also been offering to help and send support to our teams and these different regions,
Chinese Solar Industry Overview
Sam Esterby:
If current trends hold true, the solar industry is expected to more than double by 2024 with 71 gigawatts of new capacity being added. But where are all those solar panels coming from in recent market studies, China by far makes more solar panels than anywhere else on earth with a 73% market share Korea and Malaysia make approximately 11% India and Europe make 5% while the United States makes only approximately 1% it's worth noting too, that China has the highest total installed solar capacity in the world and is adding more solar power than any other country. In recent years with the capacity reaching roughly 50,000 megawatts each of the last two years, it's no wonder global renewable energy supply chains are influenced by what happens in China now back to bill and Ian. Well, let's talk about that.
Bill Nussey:
The factories did you guys live in? So Clean Energy Associates works with people who develop large clean energy projects, and you make sure among many things that you add value with. You make sure that the things that they're buying from in this case, mostly China, Chinese sourced factories are in fact, the things that show up at their projects that the quality matches the promise and the components of the ones that they've actually purchased. And given how complex the supply chains are. That's a huge value add throughout this process, especially a month or two ago, a lot of those Chinese factories were all been shut down. Did they stop production entirely? And where are they today in terms of
Solar Manufacturing Locations
Andy Klump:
Manufacturing Solar racking and modules and sales and all the parts of a solar project? It depends, uh, region by region. Uh, first of all, I think it's important to note that, uh, Hubei were Wuhan is located is not a hub for solar component manufacturing. So the solar industry largely has not been affected by a shutdown of, uh, of those facilities, but there were certain certain regions, namely, uh, you know, Zhejiang, uh, there were some in Jiangsu uh, there were, it was mandatory shutdown, right towards the end of Chinese new years. So there was, uh, effectively a week or two where a number of facilities were shut down and not able to produce. However, I wouldn't say that was categorically across the whole industry. There are, uh, certain facilities in different parts of the country that we're still, you know, still do operate during the holiday.
COVID-19 Impact on Raw Materials
Andy Klump:
Or sometimes it would just take a one or two day break or right around the core, um, lunar new year, new year festival. But there definitely were, uh, massive, uh, disruptions in terms of the ideal output. And so typically almost all of these facilities and, uh, operate in a just-in-time environment, uh, and that involves, uh, sometimes less than two weeks of, uh, of inventory or work in progress. And so a lot of the sub-components suppliers are co located right next to these facilities, as they kind of have, uh, a manufacturing complex around each one of these core parts of the, of the value chain. So there were certain pieces of the value chain that were impacted more than others.
Impact on Wafer Production
You know, wafering, for example, in the crystalline module manufacturing process, the upstream component of wafers are highly concentrated in a location of Sichuan. And Yunan in Southern Western China where there's a large reliance on hydro-power because of the low cost electricity and the high electricity component of costs of that manufacturing process.
Those components were, were hit much more deeply than, uh, than panels or themselves or modules. So wafering and capacities we saw at near zero or a 10 or 20%, uh, for several weeks or on the core modules or the solar panels themselves. We saw a similar trend except the, a little more advanced, uh, somewhere at 40 or 50% of utilization. And I'd say the range could be as wide as 30% up to 70% shortly after the Chinese new year period. But many have, since I'd say two weeks after Chinese new year, where a lot of the workers were being able to, to move a little bit more, they've now jumped to 80, 85%, and this is within mainland China bills.
Global Impact on Raw Materials
So one also has to understand the context of the solar supply chain due to tariffs. And the trade case is very fragmented. So while China produces for 70% of the world's solar modules, a good portion also get made outside of China.
And one particular market for that is, is the U S so due to the trade case, a lot of product is made in Southeast Asia and the Southeast Asian manufacturing facilities vary quite widely. We saw some that were in complete shutdown mode, just because the factory workers were in some of the core leadership or operators were around specialized equipment were from China and actually in China for the Chinese new year. And they were unable to leave the country. So there was a quarantine period for anyone coming out of China. And so it took multiple weeks for some of the small or newer manufacturers to ramp up again. So they were at the low, sometimes 0% utilization number, uh, for some time and others, uh, operated with a little bit longer inventory lead times. So once again, some of those were, they had up to a two to four weeks of inventory, but after some of those sub-components were not there, or they were relying on a disparate supply chain in China, particularly for, uh, I think junction boxes, Eva, and glass, then they were impacted during this one of the trends or supply chain implications we see is just this flight towards quality and larger scale manufacturers with greater levels of production capacity.
Andy Klump:
They, I think weather the storm a bit better, and they already had a localized supply chain in places like Malaysia or Vietnam. And, uh, they were not hit with as such low utilization numbers. And so they were consequently up to 70 or 80% fairly quickly. And I think that those supply chains are operating quite well. They also had at workers and, and other resources of management that were not coming from China. So those localized work teams, uh, they were actually able to get up and running a little more quickly on others, parts of supply chain, once again, you know, racking, uh, I know that was hit, you know, there's some, some manufacturers, even the Western manufacturers of racking, some of their sub-components were completely shut down. So, um, they did see, uh, see delays and that, uh, had an impact. So I would say the answer bill is it really varies based on what component of the supply chain you're talking about. Uh, but we've seen, uh, various, uh, various impacts.
Bill Nussey:
That's an exceptional overview. Uh, I can't imagine many people could see things so broadly, and I think that's really illustrative. So if I ask you to sum it all up, uh, in terms of the solar supply chain, that's coming out of Asia broadly, has the biggest bump already happened. And we on the other side of the Hill, or are we still going to see some substantial challenges for projects across the world outside of China getting, uh, their components? We're where are we at in the life cycle? I won't hold you to, it just would love to hear your broad snapshot of where we are in the process. I think on a long
Challenges in Current Solar Market
Andy Klump:
Term basis, uh, I don't see any major disruption. And I think the Chinese solar supply chain is able to adapt and we'll be in good shape. I think once again, in the, in the short term, there absolutely were some impacts. I think some manufacturers who contracted very tightly, uh, most certainly had delays. And we, we certainly saw some in the short term, some who are safe, harboring product. We're not able to get that in time. We're not able to receive it, uh, you know, in the U S so they consequently have had to transfer a title to qualify for the safe Harbor regulations. They have to take transfer title in Asia. What does that mean? Sorry. So transfer title is one of the requirements to safe Harbor, uh, product. So, uh, you understand this, the policy changes in the U S that benefited a lot of project developers have effectively been involved.
Challenges with Subcomponents Sourcing
A lot of the sub-components, so the sub-components had to be, uh, sourced. And when I say sub-components, whether it's modules racking or inverters, you had to transfer the title to the end owner of the system connected to a project. And that has to happen before the deadline and in early April. So that April deadline is what a lot of manufacturers were producing towards. So there was actually a big run-up of demand during the recent three to six months. And so consequently, a lot of the orders that are being manufactured now then had to be, uh, sent over to, uh, you know, to the end market. So many of the buyers wanted to take control in the United States, however, due to some of the delays, uh, there's a longer period of time that will take for the product to reach the U S so they can actually still qualify by taking transfer of title in Asia. So even though the products are manufactured, maybe they were planning to be manufactured by February and then sent by ship for 30 days and arrival in late, uh, late March, uh, do the, the manufacturing delays. They've actually had to take transfer a title in Asia instead. And, uh, and how's them, uh, within an Asian warehouse, as opposed to receiving them in the U S
Bill Nussey:
It's easy as an outsider to this incredibly complex global supply chain solar, or really any other product to just think that things are made in a factory popped in a box sent over to the U S but in fact, legal financials, human resources, dimensions of it are incredibly complicated. And then again, far, far more complicated in the context of a global pandemic. And so that's a great snapshot of what's going on in China and in the world. Um, let's, uh, pull back even further, uh, down the value chain and talk about the big projects. Uh, obviously a lot of these projects are under, uh, deadlines to capture the, uh, ITC and, uh, just in general commitments to banks. And so this, this has obviously created a hiccup to put it mildly. What have you seen happening in terms of, uh, delays in us and European projects? Has it been bad? Uh, how are people handling it,
Impact on Projects in the US and Italy
Andy Klump:
You know, outside of the U S it kind of varies by region products in Italy have been, uh, greatly impacted and hampered. Um, so there's no doubt the, uh, the, the shutdown of Italy is, uh, is having a massive impact on projects that are, uh, that are happening.
Bill Nussey:
But the Italy project is shut down because of Italy reasons. They're not struggling to get components. They just don't have people that can go to the field and install them. Is that, is that correct?
Andy Klump:
Correct. Absolutely. And that's, but that's a, that's a factor. If we look at, uh, you know, project delivery and execution, that's obviously part of the equation. So it may not necessarily be the supply chain, but it's what happens once the product reaches the port, where does one go in? Italy is EO is a market. That's had a lot of solar installations. Granted, not as large as it once was in the peak in 2011, but there certainly are implications that are happening based on the local regional topics. So, you know, what's going again in other other markets where it's Australia or other parts of the world, we still see demand for our services and products are still moving forward in the U S I think there certainly have been a lot of planning issues. We've seen certain EPCs provide force majeure clauses. We've seen a explain that with an EPC, not able to receive the sub-components or receive the racking. For example, they're not able to hit some of the, uh, deadlines. And so, because some of the sub-components in China were not able to be sent to the end assembly site. You know, the EPC is can claim that, look, this is a force majeure event, and they're not able to fulfill their obligation, uh, with a reason. And for
Bill Nussey:
Don't negotiate business to business contracts, we're living force majeure is a fascinating concept that a, is it present in a lot of contracts for any kind of, uh, service or product provision, which says there are a subset of things like, uh, natural disasters, uh, and in this case, pandemics that allow us to get out of our commitments without necessarily violating the contract. And so very few people ever see a contract force measure called a, but that's changed entirely in the wake of the coronavirus. And, uh, I hear a lot of businesses of all stripes using are enacting the force majeure clause for the very first time. And it's, uh, it's, it's what it's intended for. And, uh, and obviously it doesn't mean you're not going to build the project. It just means you get a little, uh, time and a little more flexibility and finishing it as quickly as the things outside your control or out. So you guys have with your customers, the clients have lived through, uh, and will continue to live through one of the most disruptive things in, in recent decades for global supply chains. So as this settles in and the world looks at this episode in the history and the rear view mirror, uh, what kind of lessons can you take away for people who are thinking and years out about building really robust supply chains that will hold up even better than what we've seen, uh, from the COVID 19 in the last few months?
Solar Supply Chain Solutions
Andy Klump:
Yes. So I think there are a few, a few key principles to think about and putting ones, uh, supply chain strategy together. Um, obviously you're working with a diversified supply base is, uh, is quite important, also establishing executive level relationships with your suppliers. I think another key theme is just once again, the importance of, uh, of understanding the supplier themselves, understand the quality that they operate, understand the level of supply chain strategy, the localization they have. So there has been a flight to quality during this period and in general, uh, we've, we've managed to, to, uh, to navigate this quite well, uh, by helping our clients work with suppliers are more acknowledged and recognized in the industry and those larger suppliers have more diversified supply chains and sub-component supply chains. So they've been able to handle, you know, this trend. I transcends that comment beyond solar. And just say, once again, whatever supply chain area one is working, they need to work with the advisors who have the presence on the ground and can provide that support.
Bill Nussey:
You have this a ringside seat, actually, you guys are right in the ring, uh, seeing all these changes and what we've seen in China, it has taught us lessons that will almost certainly be applicable for the rest of the world as the virus peaks and drops in China, but has many months in front of us for other parts of the world, where has yet to come close to peaking. So what has China taught us that we might advise some of the other countries of the world, some of the governments and businesses to think about, to do at least as well, if not better than China at pushing through the impacts of the coronavirus
Andy Klump:
You know, from a company perspective, I think the, one of the key takeaways that we've had over the last several months, that are applicable to other folks internationally. As you know, first of all, do not panic, have a clear system of communication that allows one to work with workers in a more dynamic, uh, environment. This certainly involves a heavy use of remote communication tools, uh, such as Microsoft teams or zoom we've embraced and use those tools quite heavily in the past. So it was an easy transition to do that, but for many companies that are centralized around a certain office location, many workers will not be working remotely. And so companies need to adapt to that style. I think having a frequent communications, uh, among all teams is extremely important from an individual standpoint. I think one of the key points here is once again, do not panic and likewise folks who are working in different remote environments, uh, they may have other challenges. So, um, you know, one just needs to be flexible. There are a variety of, of mechanisms, I think, both on a, on a company basis, as well as an individual basis to, uh, to support these areas.
Bill Nussey:
Fantastic. And you guys are living it and it's working. And I tip my hat to you. Uh, you have done a tremendous job as a company, as a leadership team to steer your company and your clients through this tumultuous time. And, uh, there's a lot of challenges still in front of us. Uh, it could get worse before it gets better, but hopefully whatever happens, uh, great leadership, good, clear thinking, uh, avoiding panic, uh, will get us through to the other side and we can get back to, um, uh, some level of stability. But for those folks in solar that have been doing this for awhile, stability is not something ever really happens, but, uh, maybe just a little more stable than we've seen the last month or two would be a great next step in outcome for getting through the Corona virus. So, Andy, again, thank you very much for sharing some time with us today. Uh, enormously impactful insights that I think everybody can learn from, and frankly, feel a little bit better about things from so appreciate it, um, and wish you and your team tremendous success and luck and your clients, uh, continue to do the great work that you do
Andy Klump:
Appreciate the platform. And I think it's important to have the communication channels so we can share ideas and spread them to the freeing energy, uh, podcast audience. So thank you very much for the opportunity.
Sam Esterby:
Thank you for joining us today. You have been listening to the Freeing Energy Podcast, personal stories from the clean energy movement, visit freeing energy.com to learn more about clean local energy. I'm Sam Easterby. Bill Nussey is my cohost and the founder of the freeing energy project. The Freeing Energy Podcast is made in partnership with frequency media. Peter Lowe. Peter is our associate producer subscribed to the freeing energy podcast on Apple podcasts, Spotify, Google podcasts, and anywhere podcasts are found. Make sure more people learn about clean local energy by rating and reviewing the show on Apple podcasts.
